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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Rhino wrote:
I think I see the confusion. I am not talking about correcting others. I do so rarely, and usually either in jest, self-parody, or an attempt to embarrass someone who has already done so in all seriousness but in error. My concern, such as it is, is that I want myself and others to be able to speak, or more likely write, as correctly as we are able without someone "correcting" us with sloppy vernacular or abusing us for avoiding it. Words are entertaining, fun, even beautiful at times. They are far less likely to be so when poorly used and chosen from a tiny pool of options. Joyce pulled it off, as did O'Brien in a different style. But since few have such epochal genius, least of all me, I simply prefer the language use of Nabokov to that of NaS.


Agreed down to "NaS", but I have no idea what that means. NAS is National Audubon Society or National Academy of Sciences, but their language use is not that much worse than Nabokov's.

As someone who rarely gets to read this far down in the forum, I just came across this thread, and found it fascinating. I agree with most of what Dante and Rhino say - they show a good command of English for an Italian and a pachyderm - but agreeing on everything would make the thread boring.

I often cringe at what I read on-line, even in this forum, and sometimes in my own postings, but, for the reasons given, usually do not offer corrections. However, since, as Cloudy suggested, it requires a fair amount of temerity to post on this thread, and those doing so likely take care with their wording, and re-read before posting, perhaps we should correct each other's just for fun. For example, did these sentences bother anyone but me?
" Language inevitably evolves, just like animals. But just like in animals, the evolution of language goes down some wacky dead ends along the way." The conjunction at the beginning of the second sentence does not bother me, but I stumbled on the second 'like'. Although there is an ellipsis there, that seemed to me to require an 'as'. And then there was "subjunctive case" ...

Perhaps a more productive line for the thread would be to identify some of our pet peeves in language use. While I recognize that languages evolve, and do not suggest going back to the pure English that Anon gave us a sample of, it seems to me that current lexicographers are far too hasty in considering widely used errors in spelling or usage as acceptable. An example is the one mentioned, "biweekly" versus "semi-weekly". When I was young (shortly after the time of the saber-toothed tigers) these terms were completely distinct, and the only question was whether to use a hyphen or not. Similarly, the (mis)spelling and pronunciation 'homogenous' for 'homogeneous" now seems to be accepted.

A pet peeve for me is the use of 'less' for 'fewer' which seems to be more and more frequent these days. It is especially annoying at those check-out counters with the "9 items or less" signs!

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Falcon wrote:

A pet peeve for me is the use of 'less' for 'fewer' which seems to be more and more frequent these days. It is especially annoying at those check-out counters with the "9 items or less" signs!


There's one I just don't understand. The confusion the rule tries to address is so rare that it is not worth worrying about, IMO. This is another case where I say the rule now only exists for its own sake. There is virtually no confusion caused by the use of "less" for "fewer." And the entire darned reason the upset occurred had to do, again, with stuffy people sitting in a room deciding who should speak what way, not with how it was actually being used; in this case, it's worse because the whole rule started with one single person's preference.

Not attempting to knock you -- I have pet peeves that are equally pointless, even in my own opinion -- but this is a rule that needs to be let die.


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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:17 pm 
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And the godforsaken internet just ate the more important post I made. Oh well.

Summarizing it, I basically was saying no one is ever right on this topic, no temerity is needed, and I consider this to be fun, light fare. Everyone's opinion is relatively equally legit on this one, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:26 pm 
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My computer not only ate my last reply, but kicked me off the board and forced me to change my password to get back in. Maybe somebody's trying to tell me something!

Anyway, the gist of it was this.
Good, we have at least one real disagreement! The difference to me between fewer and less is quite a significant one, exactly the same as those between 'few' and 'little' or 'many' and 'much'. I don't know what one person may have made such a distinction between quantity and numbers, but it goes back at least to the Romans if I remember correctly.

Generally, I agree with your last post, Dante; there may not be any absolutely right choices in languages, but some are much better than others, at least subjectively.

Cheers,

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"What mighty contests rise from trivial things!" - Alexander Pope, 1712.

"Beauty is truth, and truth beauty", John Keats, 1820.


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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:08 pm 
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Falcon wrote:
My computer not only ate my last reply, but kicked me off the board and forced me to change my password to get back in. Maybe somebody's trying to tell me something!

Anyway, the gist of it was this.
Good, we have at least one real disagreement! The difference to me between fewer and less is quite a significant one, exactly the same as those between 'few' and 'little' or 'many' and 'much'. I don't know what one person may have made such a distinction between quantity and numbers, but it goes back at least to the Romans if I remember correctly.


But what is the difference intending to signify? What is the need for the rule? What confusion does it avert?


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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:53 am 
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One thing that drives me nuts is when someone says or writes "between he and she or between you and I". The interesting is that I can not recall every hearing or reading "between they". I was once corrected for saying "between you and me". I told him to go look up the pronoun rule for objects of prepositions. This came up today when I heard some TV reporter say "it was between he and them".

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" Don't look back, The bastards might be gaining on you." - Satchel Paige

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:07 am 
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FrankC wrote:
One thing that drives me nuts is when someone says or writes "between he and she or between you and I". The interesting is that I can not recall every hearing or reading "between they". I was once corrected for saying "between you and me". I told him to go look up the pronoun rule for objects of prepositions. This came up today when I heard some TV reporter say "it was between he and them".


This is one of those rules where I imagine a good English teacher could fix it. There's a way to get people to use the nominative and objective case properly, and it doesn't rely upon being able to diagram a sentence or memorize cases. It also works 99.9% of the time. In short, most (not all), people will use the proper case when it is used as a singular. For example, you'll hear, "Mother went with her and I," from those who want to speak "correctly." Typical English classes will have one sit and think, "Well, with is a preposition. So then we're using the objective case, and the objective case will be 'me.'" Which is too much work for most people. If you teach them to remove the second object, they almost always get it right. "Mother went with me.... therefore it's Mother went with her and me." Likewise, "The King and me robbed the hoi polloi" is rather easily "I robbed the hoi polloi," when one just removes the other subject or object.

I used to be able to bump peoples' ACT scores up at least a point in English just by drilling this into their head over a few hours, then testing them at least once or twice a day .

I actually enjoyed diagramming sentences and find everything that goes along with it incredibly interesting, but I think it's easier for people to take what comes naturally ("How does it sound to your ear?") and work with that. And, having had this discussion in the past, the subject of lower income people who speak with words such as "ax" for "ask" usually comes to peoples' minds. I can say, having worked with a quite a few low income people in the past whose syntax and grammar were standardly bad, even they naturally were able to do this.


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 Post subject: p.s.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:43 pm 
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I'm worried, because I am for sure the only person, who puts "p.s.", "p.p.s.", etc., on here. Many, many years ago I was taught that this was the way to properly add afterthoughts to a letter. However, spell check, when I use it, says that all of my "p.s." additions are wrong. Did the teachers that taught me this lead me astray?

p.s. "p.s." stands for "postscriptum", and "p.p.s." stands for "post-post-scriptum".

p.p.s. I do not believe that that any of the "p.s." abbreviations should be capitalized.

p.p.p.s. Please let me know if I am wrong using "p.s." on my posts. Thanks. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:42 am 
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I used to write letters that ended with p.s., especially as a teenager. I stopped when I read where postscripts should be used sparingly. They really are parenthetical comments, and I would likely just put them somewhere in my letter or posting.

-- RWM

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:45 am 
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zog741 wrote:
I used to write letters that ended with p.s., especially as a teenager. I stopped when I read where postscripts should be used sparingly. They really are parenthetical comments, and I would likely just put them somewhere in my letter or posting.

-- RWM


Don't forget this was before the invention of the typewriter so there was not much editing.


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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:53 am 
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zog741 wrote:
I used to write letters that ended with p.s., especially as a teenager. I stopped when I read where postscripts should be used sparingly. They really are parenthetical comments, and I would likely just put them somewhere in my letter or posting.

-- RWM


Years ago I had an 8th grade nun who was an English grammar fanatic. I remember her saying "if you think you need a postcript in a letter, rethink it and rewwrite. If your afterthought is important, it should be in the body of the letter".

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" Don't look back, The bastards might be gaining on you." - Satchel Paige

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:19 am 
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Maybe 'cut and paste' got rid of a lot of post scripts. I don't know about a lot of you, but I never write a letter without a computer now. :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Good, the "p.s." abbreviation seems to be correct.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Image

Good, the "p.s." abbreviation seems to be correct. (That's what I was concerned with.)

Thanks guys. :D

Yeah, in a real letter I would not go crazy with "p.s.", "p.p.s.", etc. However, I do like to go crazy with them here. :twisted:

Why...?

There a number of reasons why I like to use them here. First of all, sometimes I purposely want them to standout as an afterthought or add on. Other times they give me a chance to add a bit of humor to a post in the way they are presented. I also think they are more likely to be read rather than skimmed over in the middle of some paragraph. I could go on, but I close my case!!!

p.s. I should add that I like the way they look, set off by themselves at the end. :lol:

p.p.s. I must also add that I don't have to worry about my 4th grade teacher, Miss Hawks, giving me an "F-" for over using them anymore. :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Good, the "p.s." abbreviation seems to be correct.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:44 pm 
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Cloudy wrote:

p.p.s. I must also add that I don't have to worry about my 4th grade teacher, Miss Hawks, giving me an "F-" for over using them anymore. :lol: :lol:


When I write handwritten letters (yes, I still do that occasionally -- and with a real fountain pen and an inkwell, too), I used p.s. quite often.

When online, I use /

/like this
//almost forgot, hi!
///slashies!
//bye
/!


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 Post subject: DANTE, the slasher...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:45 pm 
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Dante wrote:
Cloudy wrote:

p.p.s. I must also add that I don't have to worry about my 4th grade teacher, Miss Hawks, giving me an "F-" for over using them anymore. :lol: :lol:


When I write handwritten letters (yes, I still do that occasionally -- and with a real fountain pen and an inkwell, too), I used p.s. quite often.

When online, I use /

/like this
//almost forgot, hi!
///slashies!
//bye
/!


DANTE, I never thought of you as a slasher. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Image




.......... Image .................. Image

Don't worry, DANTE is just trying to fix a paper jam on his printer. ................................... Bugger...!

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 Post subject: I keep running into this...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:56 am 
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I keep running into this on many words. Earlier tonight I made a post where I used the word "kindhearted". It didn't look quite right to me, so I Googled it. A bunch of answers popped up. We have "kind hearted", then we have "kind-hearted", and finally we have "kindhearted". What the flock, they can't all be right, or can they? Anybody know which is the correct spelling of the word?

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 Post subject: What is an "acronym"...?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:51 am 
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What is an "acronym"...?

Many years ago, when I worked there, Merrill Lynch sent a memo out to all employees that said that they could not use acronyms, such as CPA on their business cards. Wait a second I thought, CPA is NOT an acronym. It is only a form of initialization or abbreviation. It ain't an acronym.

An acronym uses the first letters of a series of words that make a pronounceable word. CPA does NOT form a pronounceable word. It is NOT an acronym.

I am worried that stupidity will win out on what an acronym is, and all initializations and abbreviations will now become acronyms.

"NASCAR" is a acronym, but "DJIA" isn't.

p.s. Try to pronounce "DJIA" as a word...

p.p.s. "DJIA" are the initials for the Dow Jones Industrial Average, but they don't make an acronym, because they don't make a pronounceable word.

p.p.p.s. I know that there a bunch of smart people, who post here. Please jump in and tell me if I am right or wrong on this one. Thanks. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:22 am 
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I have to agree. Abbreviations like NATO and ASCII are acronyms when they are pronounced as words, but abbreviations like BBC, IRS, and DMV are initialisms.

Unfortunately, I don't think most people use the word "acronym" with its proper meaning.

Cloudy, this is the first time we've agreed on something this year!

-- RWM

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 Post subject: Re: What is an "acronym"...?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:37 am 
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Cloudy wrote:
What is an "acronym"...?

Many years ago, when I worked there, Merrill Lynch sent a memo out to all employees that said that they could not use acronyms, such as CPA on their business cards. Wait a second I thought, CPA is NOT an acronym. It is only a form of initialization or abbreviation. It ain't an acronym.

An acronym uses the first letters of a series of words that make a pronounceable word. CPA does NOT form a pronounceable word. It is NOT an acronym.

I am worried that stupidity will win out on what an acronym is, and all initializations and abbreviations will now become acronyms.

"NASCAR" is a acronym, but "DJIA" isn't.

p.s. Try to pronounce "DJIA" as a word...

p.p.s. "DJIA" are the initials for the Dow Jones Industrial Average, but they don't make an acronym, because they don't make a pronounceable word.

p.p.p.s. I know that there a bunch of smart people, who post here. Please jump in and tell me if I am right or wrong on this one. Thanks. :D


I agree. Acronyms must be pronounceable as a word. CPA, MD, DDS, Phd, SJ, are initials only because they can not be pronounced as a word.

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" Don't look back, The bastards might be gaining on you." - Satchel Paige

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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:29 am 
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"Sippa"
"Mid"
"Diddis"
"Phid"
"Sijuh"

I dunno, I think you can pronounce 'em all just fine.

:)


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 Post subject: Re: The English Language
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:36 pm 
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Dante wrote:
"Sippa"
"Mid"
"Diddis"
"Phid"
"Sijuh"

I dunno, I think you can pronounce 'em all just fine.

:)


Except no one ever does; at lease not in my neighborhood. You are streching. :ugeek:

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" Don't look back, The bastards might be gaining on you." - Satchel Paige

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 Post subject: Maybe we will find something else...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:23 am 
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zog741 wrote:
I have to agree. Abbreviations like NATO and ASCII are acronyms when they are pronounced as words, but abbreviations like BBC, IRS, and DMV are initialisms.

Unfortunately, I don't think most people use the word "acronym" with its proper meaning.

Cloudy, this is the first time we've agreed on something this year!

-- RWM


ZOG, maybe we might agree on some other things. :D However, it doesn't bother me when you disagree with some of the shit I post here. You make good points, and every once in a while I find myself agreeing with you.

When you get older, eventually you will agree with most of what I have to say. :lol: :lol: :lol:

p.s. I was born in 1946. What year did you first open your eyes to this world with all of the confusing stuff it throws at us...? I have changed my views on many things as the years have rolled by. Keep your mind open. Be as critical to your old ideas as you are to others' ideas, that you disagree with today, :D Someday you will understand this humble post. :D

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 Post subject: Just lost my reply to your post...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:59 am 
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Dante wrote:
"Sippa"
"Mid"
"Diddis"
"Phid"
"Sijuh"

I dunno, I think you can pronounce 'em all just fine.

:)


Damn it, my reply to your post just disapeared. Not going to try to recreate it, it's gone. However, I will say that those were pretty goofy acronyms. :lol:

p.s. Is "NTN" about to become an acronym...? :lol:

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 Post subject: Why do I always...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:06 am 
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FrankC wrote:
Cloudy wrote:
What is an "acronym"...?

Many years ago, when I worked there, Merrill Lynch sent a memo out to all employees that said that they could not use acronyms, such as CPA on their business cards. Wait a second I thought, CPA is NOT an acronym. It is only a form of initialization or abbreviation. It ain't an acronym.

An acronym uses the first letters of a series of words that make a pronounceable word. CPA does NOT form a pronounceable word. It is NOT an acronym.

I am worried that stupidity will win out on what an acronym is, and all initializations and abbreviations will now become acronyms.

"NASCAR" is a acronym, but "DJIA" isn't.

p.s. Try to pronounce "DJIA" as a word...

p.p.s. "DJIA" are the initials for the Dow Jones Industrial Average, but they don't make an acronym, because they don't make a pronounceable word.

p.p.p.s. I know that there a bunch of smart people, who post here. Please jump in and tell me if I am right or wrong on this one. Thanks. :D


I agree. Acronyms must be pronounceable as a word. CPA, MD, DDS, Phd, SJ, are initials only because they can not be pronounced as a word.


Frank, why do I almost always agree with you...? :?

I guess that is because you are old and wise. Hell, we both are. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Just lost my reply to your post...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:29 am 
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Cloudy wrote:

p.s. Is "NTN" about to become an acronym...? :lol:


Are you talking about "Nittin" ? :)


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